Mary Childs, formerly of Planet Money, has a new podcast, called Mary in America (on which we talk about Moral Economics)

 Mary Childs, formerly of Planet Money, has a new podcast, called Mary in America.

I was the guest on her first interview: 

Organs, Sex Work, and Drugs: A Nobel Economist on Why Banning Things Can Backfire, Mary in America
 

"A Nobel Prize-winning economist makes the case that our moral objections to controversial markets are getting people killed. Alvin Roth won the Nobel Prize in Economics for figuring out how to build markets that work. Now he's turned his attention to the markets we refuse to build, and why that refusal has consequences nobody wants to talk about. In this episode, Mary and Al dig into what he calls "repugnant transactions" — the deals that some people want to make and others think shouldn't be allowed. They get into why banning organ sales creates black markets where donors get operated on in apartments, why the same logic that ended Prohibition applies to the war on drugs, how surrogacy bans in Europe are turning babies into stateless people, and why it's easy to buy heroin but nearly impossible to hire a hit man. Al's argument isn't that everything should be for sale. It's that if you care about outcomes more than intentions, you have to confront what your bans are actually doing. Subscribe for new episodes every week. Chapters: 00:00 Friendship Isn't A Market 00:32 Meet Nobel Economist Al Roth 01:02 What Makes a Market "Repugnant"? 02:58 Should We Pay People for Kidneys? 08:31 Why Drugs Thrive But Hit Men Don't 15:58 Surrogacy, Politics, and Unintended Consequences 21:45 Why Prohibition Keeps Failing 25:19 Markets, Morality, and Reality 28:19 The Rise of Prediction Markets 34:30 What Money Can't Buy"

"How Moral Panic Creates Black Markets," interview by Nick Gillespie about Moral Economics

Nick Gillespie, from Reason Magazine,  interviews me about "How Moral Panic Creates Black Markets"

"Nobel Prize-winning economist Alvin E. Roth discusses the moral limits of markets, how bans create black markets, and why harm reduction often works better than prohibition."

"Today's guest is Nobel Prize-winning economist Alvin E. Roth, the author of Moral Economics: From Prostitution to Organ Sales, What Controversial Transactions Reveal About How Markets Work.

He talks with Nick Gillespie about why some voluntary transactions provoke moral outrage even when no one is being directly harmed. Roth explains why black markets often emerge when governments try to ban activities with persistent demand, why both markets and prohibitions require social support to function, and how unintended consequences can make moralistic policies backfire. They discuss the war on drugs, prostitution, surrogacy, same-sex marriage, price gouging, and why Iran remains the only country in the world with a legal market for kidney donors.

They also explore Roth's work designing kidney exchange networks and school choice systems, how digital technology and private transactions make certain bans harder to enforce, and why harm reduction may work better than prohibition in areas ranging from drug policy to sex work."

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Mark Granovetter and I discuss Moral Economics

 Speaking with the great sociologist Mark Granovetter gave me the opportunity to tell the joke "“Economists study how people make choices; sociologists study why people don’t have choices," since Moral Economics is about the controversial markets over which society struggles with which choices should be allowed and which should be banned.

 Stanford's Center for the History of Capitalism sponsored the conversation, and here it is on YouTube, but it's just a podcast, there's audio of our conversation, but no video. 

 

Here's an alternative photo from  Stanford's History of Capitalism program:

 

Work and Moral Economics: Two Podcasts (Dart Lindsley's "Work for Humans" and Ben Zweig's "The Economics of Work).

Two podcasts interview me about Moral Economics, starting from a concern with work. 

 Dart Lindsley interviews me on his Podcast "Work for Humans":

Moral Economics: Where Human Values Shape Markets | Alvin Roth
Work For Humans 

Here it is on every platform.  

 

"A kidney transplant does not work like buying a gallon of milk. Neither does hiring or getting into a medical residency. In these markets, both sides care deeply about who they end up with, and a good outcome depends on more than money. 

Alvin Roth has spent his career studying what makes those systems succeed or fail. His work designing kidney exchange programs showed that even when people desperately want to help each other, the market can still break down unless the rules create the right kind of match. In this episode, Dart and Al discuss matching markets, moral economics, and the hidden rules that shape opportunity, fairness, and work itself.

Alvin Roth is an economist and professor at Stanford University best known for his work on market design and matching theory. He received the 2012 Nobel Prize in Economic Sciences for his work on stable matching and the design of markets used in medical residencies, school choice, and kidney exchange.

In this episode, Dart and Al discuss:
- Why some markets depend on matching
- Why fit matters more than money
- What makes a market stable
- Why real markets are messy
- The difference between theory and engineering
- What “repugnant transactions” are
- Why societies ban some exchanges
- How social norms shape markets
- Why work is also a matching problem
- And other topics…

Alvin Roth is the Craig and Susan McCaw Professor of Economics at Stanford University and recipient of the 2012 Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences, awarded with Lloyd Shapley for the theory of stable allocations and the practice of market design. His work has helped design matching systems for medical residencies, public school admissions, and kidney exchange programs. He is the author of Who Gets What — and Why and Moral Economics: Why Good and Bad Markets Exist.

Resources Mentioned:
Al’s Book, Moral Economics: From Prostitution to Organ Sales, What Controversial Transactions Reveal About How Markets Work

Al’s Book, Who Gets What — and Why

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And here's Ben Zweig's The Economics of Work:

  "It was so fun talking to Alvin Roth, winner of the 2012 Nobel Prize in Economics. "One of my favorite books of all time is Who Gets What and Why, which has shaped the way I view labor markets. His second book, Moral Economics, came out last week and it’s so so good - endlessly thought provoking, funny, and sharp. In the podcast, we talk about controversial markets and what makes something repugnant, how to think about exploitation and coercion, and what that means for labor markets. "Check out the latest episode of The Economics of Work and Al's new book Moral Economics! "Moral Economics from Basic Books: Amazon: https://a.co/d/0cu6ZCLm Podcast Episode: Apple: https://lnkd.in/esVGQQx5 Spotify: https://lnkd.in/e4sr844Q Youtube: https://lnkd.in/eif7DHMS" 

Neale Mahoney interviews me abut Moral Economics on Econ to Go

 Neale Mahoney interviews me on Econ to go (with a transcript of our half hour conversation).

 "Neale Mahoney: Markets are often treated like natural objects, things that simply exist. But economist Al Roth sees them differently. To him, markets are human inventions, systems we design, shape, and sometimes struggle to agree on. Because when money and morality collide, things can get complicated. Who should be allowed to buy and sell? What should they be allowed to transact? and what happens when people want to trade things that others find morally unacceptable.

Alvin Roth: I think that one of the things we need to do is experiment on what we're morally obliged to do and reflect on it in connection with what we're actually able to do. 

Neale Mahoney: I'm Neale Mahoney, Economist and Director of the Stanford Institute for Economic Policy Research. On this episode of "Econ To Go," I catch up with Stanford Economist and Nobel Laureate Al Roth over coffee on campus. We talk about what he calls moral economics, the study of markets where society struggles to agree on what should be bought and sold. From kidney exchange to commercial surrogacy, from prostitution laws to the surprising economics of matchmaking, Al shows us that markets don't just allocate goods. They also reflect our values. You've said that markets and marketplaces are human artifacts. They are not just features of the natural environment. Why is that a good starting place when we think about the study of economics?

Alvin Roth: Well, for a long time, economists sort of thought that markets were things that we just had to take as given. You know, we speak of economists thinking of people as price takers, but in fact, they also thought of us as market takers. There are these markets. But of course, markets are human artifacts. To a great extent they're collective human artifacts, but marketplaces are often artifacts of individual companies or designers, or small groups of participants who modify the marketplace to fit their needs over time, just in the way that Uber is a marketplace designed by the company Uber. But I think there's a good analogy, which is that languages are also human artifacts, and they're collective human artifacts. You and I can speak to each other in English because we both learned English in a conventional way, but there are lots of words in our English that weren't in the language 100 years ago, words like computer and internet and AI. So, we're constantly modifying the language to better suit our needs."

Here is the whole half hour interview on YouTube:

 

There's also a Stanford news story:

Sex, drugs & surrogacy: When morality and markets clash
Stanford’s Alvin Roth won the Nobel Prize for improving how markets work. In a new book, he introduces a new way of thinking about society’s most controversial transactions, from sex work to drugs to assisted dying.  byKrysten Crawford
 

Kidneys and Moral Economics in the Financial Times

I spoke about economics with Keynes (Soumaya) in the FT:

Nobel laureate Al Roth and the economics of organ sales  
 "The economist Alvin Roth been talking about kidneys since at least 2003, noting time and again that kidneys are in short supply, waiting lists are growing longer, and people are dying as a result.
 

"So why is Roth — who appears on this week’s episode of the Economics Show podcast — still banging on about kidneys? Well, because all of those things are still getting worse."

Here is the podcast:

FT Podcast  The Economics Show with Soumaya Keynes. Should economics have fewer taboos? With Alvin Roth.   The Nobel laureate on the lines society draws around what can be bought and sold  

and here is the transcript:

Transcript: Should economics have fewer taboos? With Alvin Roth
Soumaya Keynes speaks to Alvin Roth, Nobel laureate and author of ‘Moral Economics’

"    Soumaya Keynes
So we always start this show with a silly question. So, on a scale of one to 10, how relaxed are you about marketisation? So 10, you’re extremely relaxed about having transactions in literally anything, and maybe five is the average person.

Alvin Roth
So I’m probably a 7.5, maybe 7.52."
 
 

 

Moral Economics: three podcasts, with Lawrence Krauss, Yascha Mounk, Sean Carroll

Some of the podcasts I participated in have or will come out this week, to mark the official publication of Moral Economics in the U.S. Here are those I became aware of yesterday.  I suppose you could binge on them if you want (or sample them, or even buy the book and read it or listen to it yourself:)

Below, on YouTube is the podcast with Lawrence Krauss that was recast after being lost. (It's also on substack.)

  

 "Alvin Roth is a Nobel Prizewinning Economist whose work on designing markets has had real world impacts that may have saved thousands of lives around the world, while arousing strong emotions both for and against the programs he has helped put in place.  Clearly not one to shy away from controversy, he represents the best of what The Origins Project is trying to promote: applying science and reason to public policy.   In short, connecting science and culture!

"Roth’s new book, which is fantastic, and comes out the same day this podcast is released deals with issues that often raise the public’s ire, from legalizing prostitution, to assisted suicide, and finally to a rational market for kidney transplants..."

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Here's my conversation with Yascha Mounk (there's also a transcript accompanying his podcast The Good Fight, at the link):

Al Roth on Why People Should Be Free to Sell Their Kidneys
Yascha Mounk and Al Roth discuss what we miss when we separate economics from human emotion. 

"In this week’s conversation, Yascha Mounk and Al Roth discuss the impact of moral disgust on solving economic problems, whether we should allow financial payments for organ donation, and what the rise of OnlyFans tells us about changing attitudes towards the self and economic transactions. 

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And here's my conversation with Sean Carroll on his Mindscape podcast (with transcript):

Alvin Roth on the Economics of Morally Contested Markets 

 

 

Perils of podcasting

 I had a stimulating 3 hour discussion with famed podcaster Lawrence Krauss a few days ago, about my forthcoming book Moral Economics.  Almost immediately after we concluded, it turned out that neither of us had recorded it. (We did a  shorter makeup later.)

 Here's his tweet on that:

Lawrence M. Krauss   @LKrauss1

Today my podcast worst nightmare happened.  

I did a 3 hour  @OriginsProject podcast with Nobel Laureate Alvin E. Roth on his wonderful new book, Moral Economics, that I thought was one of the best podcasts I have recorded. Except I forgot to hit record! Lost it all! With amazing grace and perseverence, he agreed to redo it 2 hours later. What resulted may have been even better. My colleague and friend @slsatel at AEI (who will do an event with him there May 14 ) told me he was a mensch. And boy was she right. I cannot believe his kindness. Thank you Al! And your book is truly inspiring. Hope to release the podcast next week. Watch it and then buy the book! Or buy the book and then watch it. :)

 

The Right to Choose to Die. Alvin Roth interviewed by Tim Phillips 1 May 2026 (VoxTalks Economics)

 Disputes about medical aid in dying are as contentious in Britain as in the US. Here's some discussion on VoxTalks Economics, in connection with my (imminently) forthcoming Moral Economics.*

The Right to Choose to Die      Alvin Roth interviewed by Tim Phillips 1 May 2026 
"Content note: this episode discusses assisted dying, end-of-life choices, and suicide. Some listeners may find the content distressing. 

 ...

"This week Tim Phillips talks to Al Roth of Stanford University about how economics can contribute to the debate on medical aid in dying (MAID). Roth, a Nobel Prize laureate, has written a new book that argues this, and similar debates, often miss the key insight: the binary choice of “allow” versus “ban” rarely reflects reality. For example, in the United States, he explains that physicians in jurisdictions where assisted dying is illegal are familiar with the practice of administering doses of drugs that will relieve pain, but also end life.

Roth's argument is not that assisted dying is always right. It is that a moral position that ignores the costs of a ban is not more ethical — it is less honest. Economists, he says, bring one specific thing to this debate: the insistence that trade-offs be made explicit. " 

 The right to choose to die Season 9 Episode 27  May 1

And here's the (automatically generated) transcript...

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The UK version of Moral Economics is here. 

Moral Economics, on the Passion Struck podcast

In the run up to the May publication date, I've been interviewed on a variety of podcasts about my book Moral Economics: From Prostitution to Organ Sales, What Controversial Transactions Reveal About How Markets Work.  Here's one from the podcast Passion Struck: Nobel Laureate Alvin Roth: How Incentives Shape Your Life | EP 757

 

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Earlier:

Wednesday, April 22, 2026   Moral Economics, on the Armchair Expert podcast

Below is a one minute bit excerpted from the Armchair Expert interview, on why it's easy to buy drugs, but hard to hire a hitman: 

The Difference Between Hitmen and Dealers

 

Moral Economics, on the Armchair Expert podcast

At the Armchair Expert podcast, Dax Shepard interviewed me in anticipation of the May publication of my book Moral Economics: From Prostitution to Organ Sales, What Controversial Transactions Reveal About How Markets Work  

 

Here's the video (which was recorded last month at their studio in LA): 

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Mike Ostrovsky on congestion pricing (podcast)

Congestion pricing: as it's happening:

Congestion Pricing: Economics, Theory, Reality

March 29, 2025 • 57 mins
with @mostrovs @skominers @rhhackett

Welcome to web3 with a16z. I’m your host Robert Hackett, and today we’re talking about congestion pricing — an area of mechanism design that’s aimed at alleviating something everyone hates: traffic.

Now you may have heard this term recently since New York adopted its own version of congestion pricing at the beginning of the year. This is the first program of its kind in the U.S. — and it’s got supporters and detractors. We’ll talk about that, and we’re also going to talk about much more.

In the first part of today’s episode we’ll trace the history of the economic ideas that got us here. In the middle, we’ll dig deeper into the details of putting congestion pricing into practice, plus technological alternatives. And in the final part, we’ll explore parallels to — and implications for — crypto networks.

Our guests are Michael Ostrovsky, a Stanford Economics Professor who specializes in this area and who has done research on congestion pricing in New York. We’re also joined by a16z crypto Research Partner Scott Kominers, who is a Professor of Business Administration at Harvard Business School where he teaches market design and entrepreneurship.

Resources:

• Michael Ostrovsky's paper on congestion pricing in New York City (from before the launch, foreseeing its issues): https://web.stanford.edu/~ost/papers/nyc.pdf
• Michael Ostrovsky's thread that went viral on X shortly after the debut of congestion pricing in New York, discussing the post-launch evidence, his team's data collection efforts, and the link between observed data and predictions in the above paper: https://x.com/mostrovs/status/1876798157595476420
• Two of Ostrovsky's earlier theoretical papers on the topic: (1) https://web.stanford.edu/~ost/papers/complementarity.pdf, (2) https://web.stanford.edu/~ost/papers/sdc.pdf
• Economist William Vickrey's influential paper on congestion pricing: Vickrey, W. S. (1969). Congestion theory and transport investment. American Economic Review 59 (2), 251–260. https://matthewturner.org/ec2410/readings/Vickrey_AER_1969.pdf

Kidney exchange: the donor stories, and the movie Abundant

 I'm learning a bit about movie production by following the progress of the movie Abundant, which is about to have a pre-release premier.  Here is the trailer (sponsored by the APKD), and the press release.

Here's the trailer:  https://vimeo.com/1048377579

 

And here's the press release:

LOS ANGELES--(BUSINESS WIRE)--ABUNDANT, a documentary film that follows the unbelievable events surrounding extreme altruists who donated kidneys to complete strangers, has set its world premiere in Hollywood at The Directors Guild of America Theater Complex on March 1, 2025. The event is presented by OneLegacy Inspires Hollywood and The National Kidney Donation Organization (NKDO) as a kickoff to National Kidney Month. OneLegacy Inspires Hollywood champions authentic and accurate storytelling that highlight the power of organ, eye and tissue donation and transplantation.

“ABUNDANT moves us beyond a mindset of scarcity, reminding us of our shared humanity and connection”

The film’s world premiere is an entertainment industry event to showcase the often-miraculous stories connected to altruistic acts such as living kidney donation. “ABUNDANT moves us beyond a mindset of scarcity, reminding us of our shared humanity and connection,” said Sarah E. Fahey, Chair of OneLegacy Inspires Hollywood. “Through a powerful emotional journey of joy, grief, and hope, the film keeps audiences engaged from start to finish—and lingers long after the credits roll. OneLegacy Inspires Hollywood is thrilled to partner with NKDO and Maitri River Productions to premiere this impactful story during National Kidney Month here in Hollywood. This is the movie Los Angeles, and the world, needs right now,” Fahey added.

The choice of Los Angeles for ABUNDANT’s world premiere was in part inspired by the widespread acts of generosity, kindness and abundance displayed by the Los Angeles community during the recent wildfires. “One thing became obvious to me about abundance and altruism when I was making ABUNDANT,” said Director Donald Griswold. “Acts of abundance or generosity don’t have to be life-saving or dramatic to impact another person’s life meaningfully. We’re all fascinated by the non-directed kidney donors who give a kidney to a stranger, but viewers walk away from the film realizing that small acts and everyday kindnesses make an important impact, too. We saw that in so many ways in LA these last few weeks. We had to show ABUNDANT for the first time here and now.”

National Kidney Donation Organization supports ABUNDANT as part of an effort to gain more attention for kidney donation stories. “We are proud to have a hand in sharing this life-affirming message of hope and goodness with the people of LA, and with all those across the country who might be inspired by it,” said Emily Polet-Monteserro, Executive Director, National Kidney Donation Organization. “This compelling film uses the vehicle of kidney donation to encourage the audience to consider what it means for them to live fully and with love toward everyone, including strangers.”

ABUNDANT includes interviews with 2012 Nobel Prize Laureate Alvin Roth, PhD, Freakonomics Radio host Stephen Dubner, author and researcher Abigail Marsh, PhD, and business leader in the field of system change, Tynesia Boyea-Robinson among other notable personalities. The film features first-hand stories of non-directed kidney donation (where a person donates a kidney to a complete stranger) in a never-before-seen way of telling stories. 

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Earlier:

Tuesday, September 24, 2024

Abundant: a moving documentary about living organ donors